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| Author: | crich [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:29 pm ] |
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Things were going good. Thicknessed my sides,practiced bending four scrapes,glued the back. Then,URGH!My first guitar,first scarf joint is short. I followed Cumpianio's book and measured 7". If I leave the head thickness @ 1/2" that will leave me only 15 "to the end of my neck blank. Does the neck need to go all the way to the end of the block? I figured I would need app. 15 1/4" to the end of the block.I don't want to shorten the scale. I'm so depressed. Clinton |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:35 pm ] |
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the other correction if the top is not built is to move the bridge and bridge plate back a little so the scale lenght is not affected, but I am betting the bodys is already built hua? |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:36 pm ] |
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You could think about building a short scale. Don't worry about it too much. You can make another one. This might not be your last mistake. 
I've heard it said that guitar building isn't so much doing the right thing all the time as it is knowing what to do when you mess up. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:39 pm ] |
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Steve "I've heard it said" is luthierish for "in my experiance"  |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:41 pm ] |
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Don't give up I did the same once. (I saved the blank for the 12 fret guitar I posted today, as you can see from the picts 12 frets to the body, shorter neck, longer body) Now I make my scarf joint first, leaving the mahogany blank very long. Once I am happy with my scarf, I then mark out the rest of the neck, add the stacked heel or block. Are you making a bolt on with a tenon? You could make a slightly shorter tenon. Show a pict of what you have |
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| Author: | crich [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:56 pm ] |
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No, I haven't bent the sides yet. Clinton |
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| Author: | crich [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:58 pm ] |
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Shorter tenon? Would a 3/4" tenon work? I was going with a bolt-on with a tenon. If the neck is 1/4" short, will the fret board be affected? Clinton |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:10 pm ] |
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If the neck is shorter, the 14th or 12th fret, depending on your plan, won't be right at the body and your bracing will be wrong. Your X brace, bridge plate etc will be relatively too close to the neck. Personally, a 3/4 inch tenon will probably be fine. Then you don't have to change anything in the body of the guitar. If you are using cross dowels for the bolt on, then place the hole for them right at the headstock end of the tenon. This will give you more purchase. PS...Taylor guitar made bolt ons for a long time with NO tenon |
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| Author: | crich [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:23 pm ] |
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Andy, Do you think that a piece hide glued to the end of the tenon would add any stability? I haven't fabricated the block yet, so a 3/4" mortise is no problem. I should go buy the bolts and thickness the block so that the bolts won't be too long? Your 12 fret is a thing of beauty!  You client should be very pleased.But I don't have plans to build one. Clinton
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:37 pm ] |
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Maybe others will chime in...My experience so far is with 7 mortice and tenon bolt ons. 5 completed guitars. I have typically started out with about a 7/8th tenon and a 1 inch slot in the body. So a 3/4 shouldn't me much of a problem....maybe I am wrong but I doubt it. I am curious what John Mayes etc feel about it. To keep the strength in the tenon with cross dowels the hole has to be set back further. If you don't use cross dowel and just use an insert in the tenon then it won't matter. Johns video uses an insert. I personally use cross dowels like Cumpianos revision neck joint. To keep the strength, just use 1/4 20 inserts in the neck tenon. Forget the cross dowels. As far as bolt length goes, I found that the 2" ones are a bit long. I have a store here in SD that sells them from 1" to 3" So I have a selection of many lengths. Lately I have been using the 1.5" bolts. If you cannot get shorter ones, let me know and I can send you some. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:16 pm ] |
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Clinton, take a serious look at making the neck without the tenon than you won't have to worry about it. Yes Taylor does it, also Mario does it, maybe he can give you some help with it. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:23 pm ] |
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Clinton, Another way to go is to not use cross dowels but use your shorter tenon and use threaded inserts and bolts. Many people are going that way now. I always forget to advertise but I have them and I think I plan on selling a necks worth, two inserts and two bolts for a whopping $.85! I am sitting on the fence between mortice and tenon and dovetail for my first guitar but if I do go M&T I use inserts. I have like 500 or so of them. All you need is the stub of the tenon to help keep things aligned! Shane |
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| Author: | Scott Thompson [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:37 pm ] |
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If you were locating the nut on the flat next to the fingerboard, could you move it back the slanted face and move the fingerboard up? |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:56 pm ] |
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What is your scale? A 25.4" scale is about 14 1/8" from the nut to the 14th fret. That would leave you 7/8 for a tenon. No problem there. a 24.9" scale would leave you just a bit more. Am I missing something or am I sleep deprived? Post a pic. |
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| Author: | Mario [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:54 am ] |
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We don't need a tenon. Taylor -still- doesn't use one, and how many guitars have they got out there? I've not seen any reason to switch to a mortise and tenon joint, either. I did one last year, and though it fit nicely and actually was easier to set(everything lined right up by, default, which was sweet!), I saw no advantages short of the quicker assembly time... |
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| Author: | crich [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:17 am ] |
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This is how I got to the app.15 1/4" From the angle measure 3/16" for the nut. (Scott's idea-move the nut from the flat to the angle,gain 3/16" )Go 14.08"(not sure which scale that is,I just read it)Then add 15/16" for the tenon. What if I glue my neck block 1/4" beyond the end of my neck blank?? Like Mario stated,the tenon will make it easier for me(newbie)  to allign and set the neck. How short can you go using a cross dowel before switching to an insert? If I'm asking too many questions, cut me off. By the time I finish with this guitar,you guys will feel like you built it with me. Clinton
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| Author: | Mario [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:39 am ] |
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Clinton, nobody is forced to come here, much less forced to answer anything; ask any and all questions you need to ask in order to succeed! Now, you NEED to know your scale!!! You cannot build anything from numbers in a book. The scale dictates everything, and I mean, everything. Before you proceed further and make a total mess of this, decide your scale, and buy or make your fretboard. Don't argue, just do it <bg>. There are many options available for your neck blank. Most of us DO place the nut on the angled portion, so that gains you much of what you were missing. Now, given that this blank is very likely a little thick, still, planing even a small amount off the fretboard side of the neck will make it longer, because of the angle. 1/32" off the top gains you nearly 3/32" of length! A little goes a long way.... Now, get yee a fretboard! |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:15 am ] |
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Moving that neck block 1/4" futher down the neck blank won't hurt anything. If you are using a truss rod that will be adjusted from the sound hole, it'll just be a 1/4" farther from the edge of the sound hole. No big deal. Really what Mario said is correct. You need to know what scale length your using. If you're just using the measurements from some chart, you can do that but these are VERY important measurements so be cautious. Moving the nut back to the agled part of the peghead is easy. Just did one like this for the first time. I like the way it looks and it was no more difficult. Good luck and don't hesitate to post questions. |
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| Author: | crich [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:30 am ] |
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I have hope again. I think I'm going to set a curfew for myself.( no more working 3 hours past my bed time!) I have a neck blank and I saw a jig in the LMI catalogue for laying out scales. Good advise and I won't argue! Thanks guys! Clinton
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| Author: | mark [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:22 am ] |
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Mmmmmmmmmmm maybe i got this wrong so just call me stupid if i did but why not cut a mortice in the neck block and add a longer tennon. Mark. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:26 am ] |
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While we're at this, what is the scale of a neck that joins at the body at the 14th fret and the 14th fret is located at 14 1/32" from the nut? i'm asking because i'm copying the neck of my old Ibanez dread and don't want to relocate the bridge on my plan! Sorry if my question looks silly. 
TIA, Serge |
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| Author: | Scott Thompson [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:00 am ] |
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[QUOTE=crich] I think I'm going to set a curfew for myself.( no more working 3 hours past my bed time!) [/QUOTE] Not just for the quality of the work but for your own safety. Better a too short neck than a too short finger! |
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| Author: | crich [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:08 am ] |
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The 25.4" scale has the 14th fret @ 14.08" or closest inch would be 14 3/32" Scott-You are so right about safety. I love to play,so an injury would be not a good thing. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:51 am ] |
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Serge, Hi, I'm new here and I was reading along and came across your post about a strange scale. I put the numbers into my handy dandy home made scale calculator and came up with a 25.3 scale being 14.03" at the 14th fret. Be careful taking that as the gospel, but it is what I show. Good Luck... joe |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:10 pm ] |
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Thanks Clinton and Joe, i'll be looking at buying a Martin Dread plan with a 25.4" scale length, and buy FB template for that scale length. I appreciate it! 
Regards Serge |
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